Three Ways to Learn
Listen
Watch
Show Notes
Pastor Matt Lake shares his journey of building a discipleship pathway and uncovering unexpected gaps that led to deep self-assessment and growth.
In this candid conversation, Matt unpacks how starting Fresh Expressions reshaped his church’s understanding of following Jesus. His story offers both challenge and encouragement to leaders ready to ask hard questions and embrace transformation.
Matt Lake serves as the Lead Pastor of First Church of Williamsport, PA. First Church also currently hosts a network of fresh expressions of ministry called the Acts Network. Matt has worked with a variety of churches in consultant and coaching roles and has a passion to see God’s Kingdom impacted through lives transformed in the love of Jesus Christ. He is a Mission Strategist & Trainer with Fresh Expressions NA.
In Season 6, we’re diving into discipleship—exploring what it means to follow Jesus and share Jesus in our everyday lives and how churches can cultivate a culture of discipleship that is more than curriculum within their communities.
Related Resources:
Purchase Crossing the Discipleship Chasm: How to Turn Crowds Into People Who Follow Jesus Here
Discipleship Reset – a week-long live training experience designed to equip the leaders of the average North American church for the opportunities of 2025. You can still receive access to the replay of all sessions (for FREE!). freshexpressions.com/discipleship-reset
Email us: podcasts@freshexpressions.com
Interview Summary
What he felt equipped to do… was to be a good church volunteer—not to be a disciple on mission with and for Jesus Christ. – Matt Lake
In today’s church landscape, it’s not uncommon to find robust discipleship programs that result in educated members—but not necessarily transformed followers of Jesus. In this episode of the Fresh Expressions Podcast, host Heather Jallad sits down with Matt Lake, lead pastor of First Church in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, to explore this crisis in discipleship and how churches can move from maintenance to mission by crossing what Matt calls “the discipleship chasm.”
Matt, who recently authored Crossing the Discipleship Chasm, draws from over 15 years of pastoral leadership and his experience as a Fresh Expressions pioneer. His insights challenge leaders to shift from content delivery to cultivating an embodied, Spirit-led discipleship journey for every believer.
From Curriculum to Calling: A Catalytic Moment
Matt recalls a moment that fundamentally changed his understanding of discipleship. After creating a comprehensive discipleship program filled with quality curriculum, a participant approached him and asked, “Is this it?”
That question revealed a painful truth:
“What I came to realize,” Matt explains, “was that he felt equipped to be a good church volunteer, but not to be a disciple on mission with and for Jesus Christ.”
This encounter became the catalyst for rethinking the purpose of discipleship—not as a program to complete, but as a personalized and lived journey of transformation.
Discipleship as Art, Not Science
Initially, Matt approached discipleship like a science: assemble the right curriculum, teach it, and expect transformation. But over time, he realized this model missed something crucial.
“We were treating discipleship like a subject to be mastered,” he says. “But it’s more like an art form—dynamic, relational, and deeply personal.”
In this new paradigm, discipleship is not about filling volunteer roles but about discovering and living into the unique ways each person is called and gifted. The shift is from content to experience, from passive learning to empowered living, and from centralized programming to individualized journeys. Instead of asking how people can fit into our church needs, the better question is: how is God already working in them, and how can we come alongside that?
Naming the Chasm: Four Key Discipleship Tensions
Matt identifies four core tensions that often define the discipleship journey. These tensions help individuals and churches assess where they are and where they’re being invited to grow.
The first is Formal vs. Informal—some people are strong in structured disciplines like daily devotions and planned service, but may lack space for spontaneous encounters or Spirit-led moments. Others are highly responsive and relational but may need to grow in regular spiritual practices.
The second tension is Deep vs. New—some disciples may need to go deeper in their understanding of faith, while others are called to stretch by building relationships with those outside the church.
The third is Belief vs. Behavior—many Christians know a lot about their faith but struggle to live it out in daily practice, while others are highly active but may need to reflect more deeply on theological grounding.
Finally, there’s the Gathered vs. Sent tension. Some grow through connection and encouragement within the church community; others grow by engaging with people who don’t know Jesus, taking the gospel beyond the walls.
Matt emphasizes that none of these tensions is a binary or hierarchy. They are simply a mirror to help people see where they are and where the Spirit might be inviting them to take the next step.
A Story of Transformation: Charlene’s Journey
One powerful story Matt shares is of Charlene, a nurturing shepherd-type who lived comfortably on the “gathered” side of the spectrum. As she walked the discipleship journey, she identified her own desire to stretch into the “sent” side.
The outcome? She began building relationships in a local nursing home, eventually leading worship there—reaching residents and staff alike. “Had we assigned her a greeter role,” Matt says, “we would have missed the Spirit-led opportunity.” Instead, she lived more deeply into her shepherding gifts in a new and surprising context.
Because Charlene identified her own growth edge, her journey became authentic and Spirit-led, not top-down or prescriptive. The community around her offered affirmation and ideas, allowing discernment to emerge communally rather than in isolation.
“Had we assigned her a greeter role,” Matt says, “we would have missed the Spirit-led opportunity.”
Discipleship for the Whole Church
Discipleship isn’t just for individuals—it’s for the whole church body. Matt highlights how even their dinner church-style gathering, First Night, has grown deeper as participants asked for more: a wedding vow renewal, a funeral to honor one of their own, and even a pre-meal Bible study that they call “Sunday School” despite happening on Wednesdays.
These moments weren’t planned in a strategic document. They emerged organically as people responded to the Spirit’s prompting. “Discipleship can happen in both gathered and sent spaces,” Matt notes. “The sweet spot is when they’re in conversation with each other.”
Small, Sustainable Steps
Many leaders are overwhelmed by the idea of reinventing discipleship from the ground up. Matt encourages a different mindset: just take the next step. Don’t crash-diet your way into discipleship change. Instead, take a sustainable, drip-by-drip approach that aligns with your capacity.
At First Church, their discipleship journey includes four stages: Connect, where people meet God and the church; Discover, where they explore their gifts and passions; Embrace, where they apply those gifts in real life; and Multiply, where they become disciple-makers themselves. Each step happens only once or twice a year, offering rhythm without burnout.
Churches don’t have to implement everything at once. If you have nothing in place, start by creating space for connection. If that’s already happening, move to discovery. Let each season unfold intentionally rather than trying to overhaul everything at once.
Matt’s final encouragement is to celebrate the strengths your church already has. A teaching-focused church has gifts to offer. An outreach-oriented church can grow deeper. “Wherever you are is a good place to start,” he reminds us.
Final Word: From Maintenance to Mission
The goal isn’t to create a perfect discipleship program. It’s to foster a culture of movement and maturity where people are growing in Christ and going into the world.
“Every disciple is called to make disciples,” Matt says. “That’s not just the pastor’s job—it’s the norm in Scripture.”
Whether you’re a church leader, small group facilitator, or a believer seeking growth, Crossing the Discipleship Chasm casts a hopeful vision for reimagining what it means to follow Jesus—and invites the church to follow him together, one step at a time.
Reflection Questions
- Where are you personally on each of the four discipleship tensions: formal/informal, deep/new, belief/behavior, gathered/sent?
- Have you ever experienced a moment when your discipleship felt more like volunteerism than transformation?
- How can your church better identify and nurture people’s gifts for mission beyond Sunday services?
- What assumptions do you hold about what a “disciple” looks like? How might God be challenging those?
- How can your community create space for both structured and spontaneous discipleship practices?
- What’s one small, actionable step you or your church could take this season toward a more holistic discipleship model?
